Jump to content


Photo

Prazipro and daily water changes?


  • Please log in to reply
5 replies to this topic

#1 wodesorel

wodesorel

    Wiggler

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Location:Columbiana Co., Ohio
  • Real Name:Rachel
  • Gender:Female
  • Age:27
  • Betta Count:7
  • Total Fish Count:17

Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:57 PM

I'm not sure what is going on, but three of my eight bettas have lost weight and are acting lethargic. None of the three share a tank, and their room mates are still healthy. I'm thinking it may be parasitic, but without knowing for sure I want to do daily water changes for a while to see if that helps as well. Does anyone know how to dose prazipro so it's effective and still do daily water changes?

Some background: A few months ago I lost one of a group of four young bettas (4-6 weeks old) I had purchased in August of 2010. She had some sort of horrific parasitic infection where worms drilled out through her head. By the time I caught it and treated it she had suffered too much damage and didn't make it. I treated every betta tank in the house for parasites except for my 20 gallon community tank because the kuhli loaches were too sensitive for the prazi. I also had a sudden death of another of those females a little over a month ago. Duck was fine and when I woke up the next morning she was dead. (It was a horrific shock and she was my favorite.) No idea whatsoever as to the cause as her roommate Zebra was and still is perfectly fine. (Zebra had been isolated and dewormed prior to being added to that tank, and they had lived together for over 6 months at that point.)

Water parameters on all tanks 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrites, >5ppm nitrates. 79 degrees. Roommates separated with plastic dividers.


The bettas and symptoms:

Male, blue (named Blue), purchased May 2010 as a full-grown adult. Lethargic and wasting away but still eating. (Also has fused fins at this point due to age.) Roommate is a young female purchased a few months ago (red and blue, named Rusty), maybe 7 months old tops, and she is fine. She had been isolated and dewormed prior to sharing a tank. They share a 7 gallon.

Female, red (named Bully), purchased August 2010 as a baby (4-6 weeks). Extremely lethargic, hump near tail, mild pop-eye, thin, got sucked against the filter intake so I switched sides with her roommate and she can handle the output current just fine. Two water changes and she seems to be perking up a bit. Roommate is a blue female (named Guppy, a betta) purchased at the same time and is same age, perfectly healthy. Guppy had slipped past the divider a few days ago when I cleaned the tank, but Bully came out on top and Guppy has a few bites to her tail. (They do this every few months, but they never hurt each other more than a few fin nips and I swear they wait on opposites ends of the tank for me to come and separate them as I've never actually seen them fighting.) They share a 5.5 gallon.

Male, multicolored red (named Goose), purchased summer of 2010 as a young adult (a few months max). Same as Blue - lethargic, wasting but still eating. In a 20 gallon community tank with 7 kuhli loaches and 3 clown plecos. He has always been a very slight boned betta and still looks like he's only about 7 months old. I separated him into a 2.5 gallon for treatment since the loaches can't be exposed. Newest betta Rooster (dragon scale plakat) is taking his place in the 20 for now. Rooster is healthy and dewormed and came home a little over a month ago.

The other unaffected fish are a king female (Zebra) that I've had since August or so of last year, full grown when I got her and healthy as a horse. Her roommate is a new plakat female (calling her Goldie or Koi, haven't settled on a name yet) that I took home last month, and she was isolated and dewormed prior to being added to the tank.

Any thoughts or advice?

#2 Stars

Stars

    Sushi is delicious.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,235 posts
  • Location:MB, Canada
  • Real Name:Jamica (JA-MEE-KA)
  • Gender:Female
  • Age:20
  • Betta Count:Hamlet
  • Total Fish Count:1
  • Referred By:Aquarank
  • Statement:I see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

Posted 26 March 2012 - 03:52 PM

Well, water changes are meant to reduce ammonia levels, there is no point in changing your water every single day unless your water parameters are off. On the contrary, constant disturbance everyday might add stress which can accelerate sickness. I think its best if you just did water changes when its necessary, if your fish have internal parasites, water changes won't deter them that much.


As for Prazipro, the standard dosage is 1 tsp per 20 gallons, when I am treating for parasites:

5 gallon medical tank

[add towel to tank to darken, add 1/2 tsp per gallon if there are secondary infections, IAL if you have any]

Day 1 - Large water change (100% or 50% depending on if your tank is cycled, I recommend you use an uncycled 5 gallon just for medication purposes, easier to deal with) and the first round of Prazipro @ 1/4 tsp per gallon.
Day 2 - Nothing expect feed 2-3 garlic soaked pellets if the fish eats
Day 3 - Same as Day 2, remove any visible poop
Day 4 - Same as Day 2, remove any visible poop
Day 5 - Same as Day 2, remove any visible poop
Day 6 - Same as Day 2, remove any visible poop
Day 7 - Large water change, again depending on if the tank is cycled, its 100% or 50%. If you have a filtered/cycled tank, add carbon to remove the medication completely. Give the fish a 24hr clean water break.

Day 8 - Second round of Prazipro, now don't quote me for this, but for the second round I do a 1.5 dosage @ 1/4 tsp + 1/8 tsp per gallon. My reasoning is any parasites surviving up to this point are the most medication-resistant (therefore, a little kick is good) and by now, the fish should have recovered a little, a higher dosage should be OK. This isn't part of the instructions, if you aren't comfortable increasing the dosage just do a regular dose.
Day 9 - Nothing expect feed 2-3 garlic soaked pellets if the fish eats
Day 10 - Same as Day 9, remove any visible poop
Day 11 - Same as Day 9, remove any visible poop
Day 12 - Same as Day 9, remove any visible poop
Day 13 - Same as Day 9, remove any visible poop
Day 14 - Large water change, 100% or 50%, remove the medication completely.

Day 15, 16, 17 - Depending on how severe the infection or paranoid you are, you may wish to add an additional 3 days of treatment. I usually don't unless the parasites were severe to the point of SBD and excessive bloating.

Follow-up:
1 Week of exclusive frozen foods consisting of brineshrimp, glassworm and bloodworms.
1/2 tsp of aquarium salt per gallon until the fish appears healthy and active again.

I usually use this schedule and had good success if it, hope your fish recovers!

Edited by Stars, 26 March 2012 - 03:54 PM.


#3 wodesorel

wodesorel

    Wiggler

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Location:Columbiana Co., Ohio
  • Real Name:Rachel
  • Gender:Female
  • Age:27
  • Betta Count:7
  • Total Fish Count:17

Posted 26 March 2012 - 04:26 PM

Last year I had some sudden fish deaths from an unknown cause. I was able to speak unofficially to a marine veterinarian (not a biologist) who used to work for one of the large public aquariums about the best course of treatment. Where she worked anytime the fish would start acting off and they couldn't immediately diagnose it they would do daily water changes until the fish recovered, and they normally never needed to medicate by doing this. It worked for whatever mystery ailment affected my loaches and killed my gourami as once I started daily water changes (25% or so) the deaths immediately stopped. Since I'm not positive it's parasites I'd like to do both.

#4 Stars

Stars

    Sushi is delicious.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,235 posts
  • Location:MB, Canada
  • Real Name:Jamica (JA-MEE-KA)
  • Gender:Female
  • Age:20
  • Betta Count:Hamlet
  • Total Fish Count:1
  • Referred By:Aquarank
  • Statement:I see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

Posted 26 March 2012 - 05:13 PM

Last year I had some sudden fish deaths from an unknown cause. I was able to speak unofficially to a marine veterinarian (not a biologist) who used to work for one of the large public aquariums about the best course of treatment. Where she worked anytime the fish would start acting off and they couldn't immediately diagnose it they would do daily water changes until the fish recovered, and they normally never needed to medicate by doing this. It worked for whatever mystery ailment affected my loaches and killed my gourami as once I started daily water changes (25% or so) the deaths immediately stopped. Since I'm not positive it's parasites I'd like to do both.


I see, are you sure some sort of chemical was not entering your tank? I cannot think of any organisms that can be stopped by water changes. Was it possible that at the time of the death there was a mass-pesticide spray in your city, a pipe cleaning in your building, if you live an apartment, other tenant might sprayed something?

The only thing a water change does is dilute any chemical-compounds in a tank, if that was the case, some sort of chemical is affecting your fish. Have you tested the waters during those deaths? Was ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all in line?
Have you tried testing ammonia and nitrite levels of your tap water? Have you done a day-to-day test for your tanks to see if ammonia/nitrite was increasing faster than usual? Also check if your pH or hardness levels are swinging, it could be a indicator a chemical imbalance.

Sometimes, when a cycle of a tank crashes for whatever reason, when it tries to repair itself it can lead to multiple mini-high spike cycles. What you get are swinging ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels that goes from 2pm in the morning to 0 at night and back to 1 by the next day. Its usually really brief, maybe 3 days but its enough to kill sensitive or weak fish and seriously impair immunity.

If you are going to do the daily water changes, you will just need to replace any medication you removed. If you have a 5 gallon, and you do a 50% water change, you will need to add 1/8 tsp of Prazipro back in. I wouldn't recommend a 100% water change as sick fish is prone to stress.

Edited by Stars, 26 March 2012 - 05:21 PM.


#5 wodesorel

wodesorel

    Wiggler

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 37 posts
  • Location:Columbiana Co., Ohio
  • Real Name:Rachel
  • Gender:Female
  • Age:27
  • Betta Count:7
  • Total Fish Count:17

Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:18 PM

The mystery disease was a true mystery. I was testing water five times a day looking for swings, (ammonia and nitrate at 0ppm, nitrate at 5ppm, ph steady at 8.0) and I had four other tanks set up at the time with no deaths or unusual activity. The community tank that was affected is in the bedroom and had been set up for four years here and another 3 years at my previous house (moved everything in buckets) and there was another 10 gallon a foot away that was fine. I had done water changes a few days before that, but I did them on all four tanks that we had in the house using all the same supplies, just like normal. There was just no way it could have been chemical in nature unless it came from the tap, but then the other tanks would have had to have been affected which they weren't.

It all happened really suddenly - my gourami of two years went crazy on evening, started swimming frantically, and by the time I could break out the test kit to see if something was off he was dead. For the next two weeks my loaches were corkscrewing on their backs without being able to straighten out, and I lost half of them. (Had 13, was down to 7 by the time it was over.) I had made arrangements with that veterinarian to send the next dead loach out for testing in case it was bacterial or viral, but the water changes stopped the deaths. It was nearly a month of constant water changes before they stopped corkscrewing and were able to swim normally again. All seven remaining loaches made a full recovery though and I still have every one of them. The clown plecos that were in the same tank were unaffected. I haven't been able to bring myself to replace the ones that were lost.

I'm still looking for a disease, toxin, or bacteria that could explain why they all curled up like a millipede on their backs and got stuck that way for weeks on end, and yet be able to recover completely. I have a few photos (wish I had videos) since it was so bizarre.

#6 marko

marko

    Alpha Betta

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,002 posts
  • Location:NJ
  • Real Name:Marko
  • Gender:Male
  • Age:20
  • Betta Count:many
  • Total Fish Count:too many

Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:11 PM

I see, are you sure some sort of chemical was not entering your tank? I cannot think of any organisms that can be stopped by water changes. Was it possible that at the time of the death there was a mass-pesticide spray in your city, a pipe cleaning in your building, if you live an apartment, other tenant might sprayed something?

The only thing a water change does is dilute any chemical-compounds in a tank, if that was the case, some sort of chemical is affecting your fish. Have you tested the waters during those deaths? Was ammonia, nitrite and nitrate all in line?
Have you tried testing ammonia and nitrite levels of your tap water? Have you done a day-to-day test for your tanks to see if ammonia/nitrite was increasing faster than usual? Also check if your pH or hardness levels are swinging, it could be a indicator a chemical imbalance.

Sometimes, when a cycle of a tank crashes for whatever reason, when it tries to repair itself it can lead to multiple mini-high spike cycles. What you get are swinging ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels that goes from 2pm in the morning to 0 at night and back to 1 by the next day. Its usually really brief, maybe 3 days but its enough to kill sensitive or weak fish and seriously impair immunity.

If you are going to do the daily water changes, you will just need to replace any medication you removed. If you have a 5 gallon, and you do a 50% water change, you will need to add 1/8 tsp of Prazipro back in. I wouldn't recommend a 100% water change as sick fish is prone to stress.

there are many toxins which can be produce in an aquarium not just nitrite and ammonia. cyanobacteria, for instance, produces toxins to keep animals from eating it. its normally not a factor, but i had a betta get sick from a neglected tank that had massive amounts of cyano. 24 hours after cleaning it all out and doing a 100% water change, he was back to normal.

if something was wrong with the tap, it likely would have been wrong since the tank was first set up and a chronic issue in all the fish, not acute in just some of the fish.

my advice: do water changes. it ALWAYS helps (as long as you keep the temps stable). if you have parasites, you remove their cysts from the tank. if you have a toxin, you dilute it, and eventually remove it.
if it is in fact a parasitic infection, water changes are paramount (there was a comment that said otherwise earlier, i totally disagree). a 50% WC will remove 50% of any free-swimming external parasites (ich, oodinum, etc) as well as free-swimming bacteria. it will also remove the majority of any cysts (eggs) of internal parasites (if you vacuum the gravel) which is very important to prevent autocontamination and reinfection (very very common for people infected with cryptosporidiosis if they dont practice excellent hygiene). of course, water changes alone usually arent enough to cure a fish, unless it is particularly hardy. but it greatly increases the recovery time from such infections from medication alone.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq