Jump to content


Photo

Marble Breeding Objective - Calico


  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

#1 Marble Lover

Marble Lover

    Wiggler

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 34 posts

Posted 06 June 2006 - 11:45 AM

I've decided on a direction for the line I would like to breed and have some ideas, and am looking for input from breeders and genetics people. I have some ideas and questions about it outlined below.

I am shooting for calico patterning, involving platinum or opaque base, marbling of black, orange, and perhaps gold/copper/bronze, maybe red...just formulating ideas here for the end result. Having given this some thought, I realize that there are multiple colors I am seeking to manipulate to achieve this goal that may or may not work.

Generally speaking, genetics for the end result would appear to be:

BL - Steel Blue
SI - Spread over the body
C - For the light background to give the light shiny appearance, Absence of black altogether
Vf - Patterning in the finage
NR2 - for the orange
Op (?) - perhaps?
Mb - Obviously in multiple layers, multi marbeling of black and orange (red layer)

This would seem to present some problems right off the bat. With C giving a total absence of black, no black marbeling could happen (I assume). Also, as the Op appears in the top layer of color, doesn't quite work as a base color as the other colors and patterns occur in the black and red layer. Without the C geno, then the Op layer wouldn't work and would appear Steel Blue, spreading over the top layer of colors, causing the other colors to appear most likely as a wash.

A couple of questions. What color layer is affected by a metallic coloring (platinum specifically)? Does it overlay black with Si in the top layer as in the Op?

Second, is multi marbeling even possible, and has there been any success with breeding stable marbling?

Finally, my thinking leads me to think that perhaps starting with a black marble backgroud, layering underneath a marble Nr2/ R if possible, with a marbled metalic and Si / BL (not sure if that would produce anything beyond a marbled BL) on top. Fun to consider here, and I appreciate any thoughts.

Perhaps like so:

Metallic (Geno Symbol?) - for platinum sheen
SI - spread over the finage
M - Black base
NR2 - for the orange
R - question mark here if R and NR2 can co-exist
Vf - patterning in finage
Mb - in multiple layers (Black, Red in particular)

#2 nativecollector

nativecollector

    jack of all trades - master of none

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 101 posts
  • Location:North Eastern North Carolina
  • Real Name:Pat
  • Gender:Male
  • Betta Count:100+
  • Total Fish Count:Still counting

Posted 06 June 2006 - 02:50 PM

I am not that good in genetics (yet, I'm still practicing :brows: )but I think that the metallic symbol is IR, more likely refered to as Irredecents (<-spelling).

As far as the rest of your questions, I will be keeping up on this thread as well to learn what you find out.

Edited by nativecollector, 06 June 2006 - 02:52 PM.


#3 Synirr

Synirr

    Sanity and happiness are an impossible combination.

  • Root Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,904 posts
  • Location:Austin, Texas
  • Real Name:Samantha Simms
  • Gender:Female
  • Age:26
  • Betta Count:Some
  • Total Fish Count:Lots

Posted 07 June 2006 - 12:08 AM

Metallic is actually a separate gene from regular iridescent, there's a movement right now to keep the non-metallic iridescent fish pure because so many of them are having the metallic bred in and we're losing the non-metallic blues.

I don't mean to sound rude, but I think you need to stop using the genetic notation for a while until you've read up on genetics some more. I think that in using the notation you're over-simplifying it and just end up confusing yourself in the end. I think maybe it's better if you just work out what you want in your head, then study up on each specific colour in depth and see what you need to acheive it.

For example... don't worry about the cambodian gene at all, unless you want a fish with no colour whatsoever on its body except in the iridescent layer, because that's what the cambo trait does (well, ideally.) It doesn't effect the fins, so even if the c gene were what you needed to produce opaque colouration, you still wouldn't get it in the fins. BettySplendens says opaques have the c gene because it is talking about pure, solid colour opaques, which of course are supposed to have a solid white body, so obviously the c gene would be an advantage in that case.

Opaque colouration is actually produced by two genes. It is a genetically steel blue fish, you're right on that, but it also carries an opaque factor gene which produces the opaque colouration. This is why you can have a pastel fish, which is a fish with an opaque layer over a non-white layer.

Metallic is on the same level as opaque, and I'm not 100% certain you can have both metallic and opaque factors expressed in the same fish, since opaque is actually a mutation of how the fish produces iridocytes (they are no longer crystalline and don't reflect light in an opaque). However, being that you want marbles, it *may* be possible for the fish to express one trait in some cells and the other in others, so it's definitely worth a shot to try, anyway. I think it may be possible, since generally reds and non-reds aren't visible together but in a multi marble fish they can be expressed simultaneously.

Multi marbling is definitely possible, there are probably some on Aquabid right now... (EDIT: Pfft, what am I saying? The fish in my avatar is a multi marble!) there's no such thing as a stable marble though, they all change colour as they age. The older they get the more stable it becomes though, generally.

And again, you're not going to be working with melanos to produce black marbles. The m gene just increases black pigment production to make the melano colouration, bettas can have melanin just fine without it. Trying to introduce the m gene into this project would probably just cause problems.

Do expect all your colour layers to overlap one-another in most of your fish... the colour blotches are random, you're not going to get nice neat separate patches of colour.

Edited by Synirr, 07 June 2006 - 12:10 AM.


#4 Marble Lover

Marble Lover

    Wiggler

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 34 posts

Posted 07 June 2006 - 12:14 PM

[quote name='Synirr' date='Jun 7 2006, 06:08 AM' post='3677']
Metallic is actually a separate gene from regular iridescent, there's a movement right now to keep the non-metallic iridescent fish pure because so many of them are having the metallic bred in and we're losing the non-metallic blues.[/quote]

Hmmm...good peice of information. I wasn't aware of that. Glad to know.

[quote]I don't mean to sound rude, but I think you need to stop using the genetic notation for a while until you've read up on genetics some more. I think that in using the notation you're over-simplifying it and just end up confusing yourself in the end. I think maybe it's better if you just work out what you want in your head, then study up on each specific colour in depth and see what you need to acheive it.[/quote]

No offemse taken. I am inclined to agree with you there :-) Simple is always better, but in this case, not quite so crystal clear set in stone. Trying to work it out, but more study needed to be sure.

[quote]Opaque colouration is actually produced by two genes. It is a genetically steel blue fish, you're right on that, but it also carries an opaque factor gene which produces the opaque colouration. This is why you can have a pastel fish, which is a fish with an opaque layer over a non-white layer....Metallic is on the same level as opaque, and I'm not 100% certain you can have both metallic and opaque factors expressed in the same fish, since opaque is actually a mutation of how the fish produces iridocytes (they are no longer crystalline and don't reflect light in an opaque).

Ok...I think I understand this better now. Op mutates the production of irridiocytes from crystaline to non-crystaline whereas metallic remains in the crystaline arena, same as the blues and greens (reflective capacity...I know I read that somewhere. I think Bettasplendens). Of course, just the conceptional, and I take what you said above...more study...to be a big part of what I have planned.

Got it on the cambodian factor and no, I do not want this line to be absent body coloration. Just doesn't fit.

[quote] However, being that you want marbles, it *may* be possible for the fish to express one trait in some cells and the other in others, so it's definitely worth a shot to try anyway[/quote]

Cool...will be an interesting journey to be sure, and I get the maybe part.

[quote]Do expect all your colour layers to overlap one-another in most of your fish... the colour blotches are random, you're not going to get nice neat separate patches of colour.
[/quote]

Good read there. I had fixed patterns running through my mind, though I had begun to suspect there would be overlays of pattern. It's not like I am breeding a dog, where patterns are crisp and well defined (sometimes depending on the breed...we breed jack russells...well defined patterning)

I did go to my local petstore yesterday to look at calico goldfish. I noted that only the Koi have distinctly defined patterns; however I know they were specifically bred for that trait, and for the top only since you see them in a pond from the top. The other calicos, though, had varying patterns, some areas distinct with others overlapping into the distinct areas...overlapping layers of color and irridescence. They were quite beautiful, and the coloring varied from black to orange to yellow to white with gold sprinkled in. I even saw some with a bit of blue though not particularly deep (more like a blue grey). I can just see in my mind a betta with the same type of patterningn and coloration...really beautiful.

I'll give this some more consideration about what the end result could be, and then post the objective / vision from there.

Thanks, and blessings

#5 Synirr

Synirr

    Sanity and happiness are an impossible combination.

  • Root Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,904 posts
  • Location:Austin, Texas
  • Real Name:Samantha Simms
  • Gender:Female
  • Age:26
  • Betta Count:Some
  • Total Fish Count:Lots

Posted 08 June 2006 - 12:08 AM

Op mutates the production of irridiocytes from crystaline to non-crystaline whereas metallic remains in the crystaline arena, same as the blues and greens (reflective capacity...I know I read that somewhere. I think Bettasplendens). Of course, just the conceptional, and I take what you said above...more study...to be a big part of what I have planned.

Right, the opaque mutation is the key there to making the iridocytes non-reflective... the mutation can occur in royal blue and turquoise fish as well, which gives an opaque with a different tint to it rather than the pure white opaque of a genetically steel blue fish.
The metallic gene supposedly causes a change in the structure and/or pattern in which iridocytes are depositied in iridophores, so that they reflect some different light spectrums from the norm (yellows as well as/instead of greens and blues,) and reflect light irregularly, which is what causes the fish to appear to change colours in different light.

#6 Marble Lover

Marble Lover

    Wiggler

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 34 posts

Posted 08 June 2006 - 11:47 AM

The metallic gene supposedly causes a change in the structure and/or pattern in which iridocytes are depositied in iridophores, so that they reflect some different light spectrums from the norm (yellows as well as/instead of greens and blues,) and reflect light irregularly, which is what causes the fish to appear to change colours in different light.


I saw something on Bettabite mentioning the iridophores in Yellows and read something else about it elsewhere. Does this mean that iridophores are found in each layer of color, enabling the metallic influence to reflect the particular light spectrum in a different way than regular irdocytes found in the Blue/Green layer (meaning a kind of change to the crystaline reflective capacity of the regular iridocytes)?

I'm grasping a little here to conceptualize and solidify what I've read to ensure I understand.

Maybe a simpler way to express what I perceive here is:

1. Iridophores exist at each layer of color, which is what gives that layer the ability to reflect light in a particular spectrum...what we see as color (Yes?)

2. The opaque factor only influences the top layer, mutating the regular crystaline reflectivity to an milky, non-reflective (in the iridescent normally seen) appearance.

3. The metalic influence / gene affects the iridocytes at each color layer (or can influence each layer), to reflect light in a different way than normally observed. I am guessing it can make colors more intense, multifacted reflective (analogy to a color change observed when changing the facing of a crystal in the light), and is most responsible (?) for the appearance of the gold, bronze, and copper we see today.

#7 Synirr

Synirr

    Sanity and happiness are an impossible combination.

  • Root Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,904 posts
  • Location:Austin, Texas
  • Real Name:Samantha Simms
  • Gender:Female
  • Age:26
  • Betta Count:Some
  • Total Fish Count:Lots

Posted 08 June 2006 - 11:16 PM

1. Um... no. Iridophores are a type of cell in the skin, they are where iridocytes are found. Only the very top colour layer is iridescent and due to iridocytes, all over layers are non-iridescent and due to true pigments. What gives iridocytes the ability to reflect light in different spectrums is the structure of the iridocyte itself. An iridocyte is actually a microscopic guanine crystal, and is a waste product of nitrogen metabolism. Note that the colour of a blue fish is not made up simply by the reflected light of the iridocytes, but by pigments under the iridocyte layer as well. You can have an iridescent fish without pigments, as can be seen in albinos (which still have an iridescent layer), but there is no pigment that can produce the blue colouration without the aid of the iridescent layer. I'm pretty sure that a blue fish, under the iridescence, is actually black, as you'll notice that melanos with iridescence appear steel blue. That's just my own personal theory though, I've yet to read anything about that. I've also had a copper fish, which is genetically steel blue with metallic factor, throw me some black marbles.

The part about the iridocytes mutating to reflect yellow doesn't have anything to do with the non-red yellow; that yellow is non-iridescent and due to pigment. An ideal yellow fish will have very minimal iridescence, by show standards.

2. Right. Opaque factor makes the iridocytes granular rather than crystalline, so they no longer refract light.

3. I'm a little sketchy as to what it really does... I *think* it changes the structure of at least some iridocytes so they reflect a different spectrum as mentioned with the yellow light, and changes the way in which they are deposited in iridophores so they end up refracting light all over the place, which is what makes the fish appear to change colour as it moves.

#8 Marble Lover

Marble Lover

    Wiggler

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 34 posts

Posted 09 June 2006 - 01:35 PM

Ahhhh...I see why I confused myself there. I was thinking that the color layers and the skin of the fish were synonymous. I get it now....they're not.

When talking about coloration, we are really talking about the layers of color found in the appearance of the fish. When talking about iridophores, we are talking about a the type of cell within the skin of the fish that is responsible for the pigmentation of the fish, which we see and identify as the color layers... blue/green (iridocytes), Black, Red, and Yellow (not to be confused with the yellow betta we now know, which is actually a mutation of the non-red gene we see as red, that appears as yellow instead (loosely identified as NR1)).

Then, when talking about either irridescence or mettalic, we are talking about the crystaline deposits in the iridophores (iridosytes) that affect only the top layer of coloration, what we see as the blues and greens...while with the metalic factor, we see a change of some sort that mutates the iridocytes to then appear metalic (coppers, bronzes, golds, platinums) at the top layer of coloration, relfecting light differently than the natural iridocyte deposits.

In the same way you cannot have the blue coloration without the iridocytes in their natural state, you cannot have the metallic colors and influences without the mutated iridocytes of the metalic factor / gene (obvious now).

And of course (forgive me for repeating myself here...helps me to clarify and understand) you cannot have the powdery, non-reflective quality found in the opaques and pastels without the mutated iridocytes that are granular rather than crystaline (identified loosley as the op gene / factor).

Given the biological aspect that you mentioned above, than it makes much more sense to me why the environmental elements play such an important role in the raising of the fry / care of the bettas. If the diet isn't quite right and the water quality is poor, then just as in humans, the fish would not have the elements necessary to fully express a particular genetic trait. As an example, if the fish bred were genetically intended to be a rich royal blue, all factors of the breeding being ideal, if the fish did not have the nutrients and conditions as close to ideal as possible, then the fish may not express the full potential of the genetic traits bred for (meaning the blue would not necessarily express itself fully).

#9 BettaBGd2Me

BettaBGd2Me

    Wiggler

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 25 posts
  • Location:near Nuernberg - Germany

Posted 09 June 2006 - 02:03 PM

... very helpful discussion :thumbup: ... learned some new aspects ... thanks ... Best Herb

Edited by BettaBGd2Me, 09 June 2006 - 02:03 PM.


#10 Synirr

Synirr

    Sanity and happiness are an impossible combination.

  • Root Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,904 posts
  • Location:Austin, Texas
  • Real Name:Samantha Simms
  • Gender:Female
  • Age:26
  • Betta Count:Some
  • Total Fish Count:Lots

Posted 09 June 2006 - 05:45 PM

Yep, now you've got it! ^_^

#11 Marble Lover

Marble Lover

    Wiggler

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 34 posts

Posted 10 June 2006 - 10:30 AM

Yep, now you've got it! ^_^


HE CAN BE TAUGHT!!!! :blush:

Forgive once again the re-stating of the obvious (obvious now...hahaha), genetic notations, then, are simply a general desrciption of a particular trait observed in a particular betta, and bred for in a particular pairing. Because the betta might have that particular trait in its genetic makeup, that does not mean that the particular betta expresses that trait fully. There can be wide variations in the expresswion of that trait, from very mild to very intense. The process of bringing that trait into its fullest expression, then comes as the result of selective breeding and outcrossing, observing for the traits expression, and then breeding to bring out its fullest expression in the line being bred.

Working with a particular trait or perhaps two traits...say the ideal genetic royal blue (I assume defined objectively as Bl) with the ideal HM...a teeny bit simpler than working with multiple traits; however, even in the process of breeding for those ideal traits, other traits could be present that would need to be bred out of the line, or minimized while maximizing the expression of the traits desired.

I get it now also that some genetic traits are well understood as to breeding, such as BL, Bl, bl, M, m, SI, si, R, ER, NR, C, vmf. Others are not so well understood and are under continual study such as mb, Op, NR1, NR2, RL various tail forms like HM, CT, DT, RT and metallics. Of course they're all under continual study, and some are known to be dominant while others recessive, then some co-dominant, others partially domanint, others undetermined at this point. Then of course their are the new areas like the purples and a lyre tail I observed (one of a kind at this point as far as I know).

Given all of this, my own particular goal will be quite challenging, as multiple color layers and tail forms are involved with a variety of genetic traits / manipulations being required. The goal here would then be to identify the traits at which layers I wish to work with / manipulate, select breeding pairs who carry or already express those genes, and then (simply speaking), have at it. Line breed selectively, outcross when appropriate to introduce traits desired, and keep going. :dasauce:

PS: I love genetics! Really cool stuff.

Edited by Marble Lover, 10 June 2006 - 10:33 AM.


#12 Synirr

Synirr

    Sanity and happiness are an impossible combination.

  • Root Administrator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,904 posts
  • Location:Austin, Texas
  • Real Name:Samantha Simms
  • Gender:Female
  • Age:26
  • Betta Count:Some
  • Total Fish Count:Lots

Posted 10 June 2006 - 07:07 PM

I've seen that "lyre tail" betta... note that Faith, the creator of Betta Talk, had not seen it in real life, and I'm inclined to believe it's just a fish with fin damage or something. If you look at the pic, you'll notice there's a chunk missing out of the anal fin. She also posted a "double split tail" that is very obviously just a DT with marbled cellophane sections of tail that make it appear as though the fin is missing when it is actually clear, so I'm not sure I trust Faith's judgment on that kind of thing. :P

Edited by Synirr, 10 June 2006 - 07:08 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

IPB Skin By Virteq