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Fin Rot Treatment


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#13 tygr1203

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 04:02 PM

hey NFP, what brand of medicine carries this: Neomycin Sulfate or Kanamycin Sulfate

and how much salt is too much? is it not recommended to put a little bit of salt in when there is fin rot, or a little bit is a good idea, or is it just good for parasite problems?

#14 Kathy

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 08:52 PM

Most water has some natural occuring salt, ranging to as high 0.06%, lower doses will not show on the drop kits, but may on meters. Also should be noted that Salt is one of several electrolites IE: Potassium... Other salts may occur in Calcium and Magnesium (and these are important to the filters also since the bio bugs also use them as well as fish and plants) if what you look at is this phase of, test the water or get a copy of the city's water report to see how much salt is in the water already. As a rule, salt of 0.03% is enough to carry between water changes. Also note the dosage rates are with Koi/Goldfish in mind, I would not recomend the higher levels for other species, each species is different accordingly and urge caution and researching the correct dosage per species acceptable, but this is what I have in my files. But then I would on any medications used, as some species do not tolerate some medications at all or done at half doses of..

0.1% is general tonic level - harmless and can be used indefinitely but not necessary if there is no reason (see above) to use salt. Also used dureing the nitrite phase of cycling. <1 tsp per gl, 1 tablespoon per 5 gl's is approximatly 0.1% without getting right down to the actual math and a salt test kit is recomended>

0.3% treatment level for some parasites like ich and costia. A few weeks exposure is okay/ tech 14 day's suggested use.

0.6% treatment for salt resistant parasites <IE: Costia>, regenerate slime coat - start to irritate the fish. No more than 2 weeks

0.9 salt bath level. First aid for parasites, kick start osmotic process - a couple of hours but depends on how the fish handles it

1.5%+ salt dip - strips slime coat, kill fungus, etc. 5-10mins MAX. As soon as they roll over, take them out of the dip.


Salt dosage for Nitrite Phase:
http://koivet.com/ht.....Water Quality

Salt in the QT:
http://www.koivetfor...ead.php?t=17533
Salt is used to manage stress, nitrite uptake, and parasite eradication.

Medical Cabinet recomendations:

http://www.koivetfor...ead.php?t=17772


Salt should alway's be dissolved and pour/spread/distributed evenly around, never in the the filters.

Technically it should be treated as a medication period IMHO.


Neomycin Sulfate can be found in Neo Sporin, Debride and Bio Bandage would be the fishy equevalent of, and can be found on its own as a powder as well. I do believe I saw it listed on his site in the powder. I havn't had a chance to look over all the meds there yet. I think the Kanamycin Sulfate is as well, though Kanaplex is one such medication :V:

#15 Saucy

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 09:56 PM

Kanamycin is Kanamycin. You'll only find it under that name... and I'm not sure about the neomycin. I'd personally order some off of his site at www.nationalfishpharm.com :)

#16 Synirr

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 11:09 PM

I'm just gonna pipe in to say that I've never had salt or salt dips cure finrot for me, not ever... I like to use Melafix as a general antiseptic before resorting to antibiotics, but if you have a case of true bacterial finrot, salt is not really the best option in my opinion. I used salt and salt dips for everything back when I first started keeping bettas, and in my experience just doing frequent water changes is what cured my fish, not the salt itself. I've had really good results using 1/4 to 1/2 the recommended dose of Melafix for mild cases though :)

EDIT: Oh, and I haven't had a case of finrot in about a year just by keeping my tanks clean.

#17 Betty

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Posted 09 July 2006 - 11:24 PM

Hmmm, when keeping a betta in an uncycled tank, I've always advised to test daily for ammonia. when it shows up, then you know how many days you can go between water changes. I'd be cautious about only doing 3 partial water changes per week in an uncycled bowl without testing for ammonia to make sure that water change schedule is keeping it at undetectable levels. I also wonder if at some point with only partial water changes, enough biobugs would get established to produce some nitrIte.

I did read an journal article recently where they found that salt does help keep flex from being able to stick to the fish. (Altinok & Grizzle (2001) Effects of low salinities on Flavobacterium columnare infection of euryhaline and freshwater stenohaline fish, Journal of Fish Diseases, 24, 361-367) This study demonstrated that salt is a useful adjunct to antibiotics when treating flex. I've used .3% over two week periods with goldies and haven't noticed any effect on my biofilter. Predissolve and pour into a high flow area making sure it disperses well is how I dose salt. It'd be silly to put a concentrated salt solution in your filter. In an uncycled betta bowl, I'd think the effect on the biofilter would be irrelevant since there is no biofilter.

I'm curious... How salt tolerant are bettas?

#18 Kathy

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 12:24 AM

I use a iodine swab for the finrot itself if it is stubborn, Betadine, Providine or Peroxide are applicable subs there, have used a MG swab also. Otherwise Pristine water is the best IMHO. :tup: Synir I like the Mela Fix for some things, but not everything. I've used it for white eye, and it cleared it up nicely and not even on a full dosage, but if it was stubborn I would have considered going to something else stronger in a antibiotic. We do have to be mindful of gills and oil's.. For example, a fish that is really sick and also has fin rot, would be a good idea as the tea tree oil can coat the gills, in this case, we don't want that happening as it can hinder. So a antibiotic or swabbing is a better step in this case. If its only fin rot and the fish where persay otherwise healthy then Mela is a good one. Each fish is a individual on its own, as are bacteria's and fungus. Some will be resistant, while others won't be. Bottom line is that treatment alway's starts with the water! :cheers:

:V:

#19 Synirr

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 01:28 AM

Peroxide?? Peroxide can easily cause tissue damage and irritation. I'd never put peroxide on a fish... heck, I won't even put it on an open wound on myself. You should never apply it to disinfect a piercing site, for example, because it causes irritation and dries the skin out. There are a lot of other things that work much better. I'm really against topical treatment for fish as small as bettas anyway, because there are plenty of other equally effective treatments that don't require the fish to be out of water for any length of time.

#20 Eudie

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 11:26 AM

I agree 100% Synirr. There are plenty of treatments available without having to resort to topicals for bettas. The poor things go through enough stress without putting them through something like that if it can be avoided at all.

As far as the salt issue, I've had at least a dozen bettas cured from fin rot and have never used salt for anything other than mild parasite control. It is not a medication and shouldn't be used as one.

Kathy, for every source you can quote, I can find at least one that says the contrary to what you are saying. There is a lot of misinformation floating around in a lot of forums. Personally, I prefer to listen to someone with the actual hands on experience than to look up a reference that someone posts from someone else, who may or may not have correct information.

And congratulations for being a moderator on another forum. I'm a moderator on this one. That doesn't mean I know more than someone who has spent 30 years working with and developing treatments for fish. I will be the first to tell you that I don't know everything about bettas. But I am smart enough to welcome every ounce of Brian's knowledge that he is willing to share with us and to learn from it. Perhaps your information would be better suited in the koi section here since that seems to be your forte.

#21 tygr1203

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 11:50 AM

hmm, back to the salt thing.. so is it recommended to put salt into the water as a routine preventive for parasites when i prepare the water? i used to stick to the half a tsp aquarium salt for one gallon, is this already way too much?

and what about colloidal silver on the treatment of fin rot and bacterial issues? i've heard of many people having good results from it, but not sure myself and i've lost the info on correct dosage and application

#22 RandomWiktor

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 12:04 PM

Peroxide isn't very effective in killing bacteria; I remember learning about various germicides in Clinical Pathology, and peroxide is one of the weakest. People mainly use it for the mechanical action of bubbling debris out of wounds, but that aside it doesn't do much, and is known for damaging cells when placed on open wounds. So it may not be safest for bettas, though I do know some people who have had a degree of luck with it.
Personally, I've treated plenty of fin rot from bettas who probably just had ammonia/nitrite off the scales in their cups when I rescued them from the pet stores. I found that a double-dose of stress guard (not stress coat) and BWE, plus 1tbsp salt per 5g (as mentioned by Kathy) and water changes every other day will clear up most cases. However, when I see rapid deterioration and bloody fin tips, I will use an anti-biotic; M2 seems to work in most cases.
I'm not too worried about salt killing good bacteria in the tank, namely because my tanks are not cycled. I'd think twice about putting a high salt dose in my nicely cycled goldfish tank, though. However, for my boys in unfiltered 5g tanks that are cleaned at least once weekly, I seldom if ever see fin rot, and am not bothered by using salt.
Either way, I'm going to take down the names of the anti-biotics suggested here so that if I get a bad case of rot that is caused by Psuedemonis, not just bad pet store husbandry, I'll know what is most effective to treat with. Thanks Brian!

Edited by RandomWiktor, 10 July 2006 - 12:09 PM.


#23 Ingrid

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 12:13 PM

Just gonna pipe in to say that the koivet.com isn't like other forums....it's a place started by a fish vet and only those deemed worthy by him may be moderators and administer treatment advise. Not saying I agree 100% with Kathy, so please don't start picking on me....I just wanted to say that koivet isn't your typical forum. :V:

#24 Saucy

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Posted 10 July 2006 - 12:25 PM

Ok, enough about the salt and betadine already. We've had one warning about this already. If salt, betadine, iodine or peroxide actually worked for REAL infection, we wouldn't need antibiotics.

For now, this topic is closed.




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